This is an audio transcript of the Life and Art from FT Weekend podcast episode: ‘Culture Chat — ‘Sunny’ has its circuits crossed’
Lilah Raptopoulos
Hi, listeners, this is Lilah. Before we begin, I want to remind you again about a short survey that we’re running. We’re doing it to hear a little bit more about who you are and what you like about the show. Anyone who takes part before August 29th will be entered into a prize draw for a pair of Bose QuietComfort 35 wireless headphones. There’s a link to the survey and terms and conditions for the prize draw in our show notes, and we really appreciate the feedback. So thanks to everyone who’s participated so far.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Welcome to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I’m Lilah Raptopoulos, and this is our Friday chat show. Today we are talking about the new Apple TV+ show Sunny, a robot comedy thriller that ponders the humanity of AI. The show is set in the near future. It stars Rashida Jones as Suzie, an American expat living in Japan who’s just lost her husband and son in a plane crash. As she’s grieving, a cute little domestic robot shows up at her door named Sunny.
[‘SUNNY’ OFFICIAL TRAILER PLAYING]
Lilah Raptopoulos
What ensues is an unlikely friendship between Suzie and Sunny, and a mystery as they try to find out what happened to her husband and who he really was. The first three episodes are out now, and a new one is dropping every week, and I have two wonderful guests to talk through it with, so let’s get into it. My name is Lilah, and I make homicidal robots. Joining me from London, she’s covered crypto and new technologies for years, and she was programmed to get to know you. It’s FT columnist Jemima Kelly. Hi, Jemima.
Jemima Kelly
Oh, that was a lovely intro. Hi. Thank you.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Also in London, he’s the editor of FT Money, and he’s a person in the editorial sense. It’s our friend, Nathan Brooker. Welcome, Nathan.
Nathan Brooker
Thank you very much. Very accurate.
Lilah Raptopoulos
I’m really happy to have you both here. And I thought I would start off by asking, you know, the show has a very odd premise. A lot of reviews have suggested that it quote sounds crap, but it’s actually good. And I was curious what you both think. Like thumbs up or thumbs down? Did you like it? Nathan, let’s start with you.
Nathan Brooker
I enjoyed it. I would put my thumb slightly above the meridian, I reckon about sort of 60 per cent. It had some very good moments, some fun lines. It looked really, really good. The soundtrack is incredible, I think. But fundamentally, I thought it was a bit of a triumph of style over substance.
Jemima Kelly
Oh.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Wow. Jemima, what did you think?
Jemima Kelly
Well, as an actual contrarian, I’m inclined to differ, but I’m struggling to defend it because I guess I enjoyed it. I have a bit of a rule, which is that my TV taste is either things that are what I consider to be excellent, and I’m talking like, you know, I’m only going to watch it if I’m giving it like an 8, 9 out of 10, like, and there’s only going to be maximum like two shows a year that are going to be on that level. And then I also watch the absolute bottom. (Laughter) The absolute lowest of the low. Because sometimes, for example, recently my friends got me into Selling Sunset. Either it has to be like utter shite. Am I allowed to say that?
Lilah Raptopoulos
Absolutely.
Jemima Kelly
. . . or really good. And I feel that Sunny might fall between those two. I’m not getting the dopamine hits from either like I’m not laughing out loud and I’m not scared. And so I’m not being my emotions aren’t very heightened. And I’m not feeling like in love with the characters either. Like I’m not getting any strong feelings for many of it.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, that’s interesting. OK. So as not a natural contrarian I actually want to defend this show a little bit, hearing the two of you, even though I think there’s like there’s something ….
Jemima Kelly
That is a bit contrarian of you, Lilah.
Lilah Raptopoulos
I know. It’s unlike me. But although I think I agree that there isn’t sort of like a strong beating heart at the bottom of it, like there’s some tension or something that it’s trying to get at that I want it to get more at. And I’ve watched four episodes. I like it more than I expected. I’m finding it, like surprisingly whimsical. I’m finding it aesthetically gorgeous. I love being in Kyoto, where it’s set. I like Rashida Jones. I like her energy. I like how she’s sort of jaded and flippant. I love her outfits. And I find it refreshing, I guess, that it’s between genres. I find it refreshed. Like, if this was a Netflix version of this show, it would be like, “Dun, dun, dun! The future of AI”. And I kind of like that Apple TV+ is doing this sort of lightness. It is giving it a lightness element.
Jemima Kelly
Actually, yeah, I do see that. And actually, it definitely has grown on me, like from the first episode, where I was like, “Oh gosh, this is . . . I’m not into this”. It’s definitely grown on me. I think, like, I’m not ruling that out, that it could actually get really good. And there’s something weird I like. I do like the slightly offbeat nature of it that is quite distinct to it.
Jemima Kelly
Yeah, yeah. Nathan, what are you thinking?
Nathan Brooker
Yeah, well, not being contrarian at all, I would also say that, I like it now after having watched three episodes. I like it more than I did at the beginning. I thought it started at a kind of glacially slow pace. And some of the dialogues was pretty . . . Just very quippy and kind of superficially witty, but actually kind of very superficial. But I think it’s . . . the intrigue for me has grown, definitely, as episodes two turned into three.
Lilah Raptopoulos
The only other thing I really like about it is that they don’t explain how this robot gets upstairs. (Laughter)
Nathan Brooker
I feel the same thing. It’s got a tiny little wheel. How is it getting about?
Lilah Raptopoulos
And it just kind of shows up like in a bed, upstairs, downstairs, and we’ll never know.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
I would love to talk in more detail about what kind of show this is. On the one hand, it’s this kind of thriller and it deals with these heavy themes like grief and loss and the homicidal potential of the AI. But then it’s like a goofy buddy comedy. Yeah, it’s a couple of things. It feels like it has this light touch. It has a sort of playful tone. She’s meant to be sort of numb. It has almost the Ted Lasso humour to it. But it’s also kind of dirty. And it’s also kind of sad. Yeah. What kind of show do you think it is? Nathan, go ahead.
Nathan Brooker
Well, I was just going to agree, really, that it is a mixture of shows. And in some ways that’s a strength because it is kind of quite fun. And some of the juxtaposition of like sort of the violent or the hints towards the violence and the kind of cutesy kind of character is quite witty in that regard. So is it then a meditative kind of thing about kind of AI and tech and loneliness and stuff. And it’s like it’s not really treated carefully enough for that. Because, you know, the grief doesn’t really ring true. And you know, you have to treat these subjects with a lot of delicacy, and it’s not quite delicate enough for that.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. It’s a good point. I . . . yeah, I wanted to throw a couple of things by you that make . . . that I think that it felt like in a weird way. And you can tell me if you think I’m nuts or not. One I don’t know enough about Japanese TV and film, but there was something that felt specifically sort of the tone. Sort of Japanese to me in that, like, you know how in Miyazaki films like The Boy and the Heron, like, things are scary, but then there’s, you know, a bunch of old ladies scurrying around and, like, heaving in unison. And it’s kind of cute and funny. Or like, I don’t know if you saw the film Tampopo. It’s this, like, film from the ‘80s, about this roadside noodle shop, and it’s kind of a satirical play on westerns, but it’s kind of like porn-y, and it’s kind of . . . you’re just kind of along for the ride in this funny way where it’s like light and dark at the same time. And, so I felt like it was a little bit that. And then as I was watching, you realise Suzie’s husband might have had ties to Yakuza, which is this organised crime group, that it’s kind of Japanese mafia. And once you realise that, you’re like, “Oh, is there something kind of The Sopranos about this?” Because he …
Jemima Kelly
Oh!
Lilah Raptopoulos
Because he . . . He works in refrigerators.
Jemima Kelly
What a big name to use. (Laughter)
Nathan Brooker
Come on.
Jemima Kelly
You can’t just drop in The Sopranos.
Lilah Raptopoulos
But he works in the robot version of waste management, right? He works in like refrig . . . She’s like, “I always thought he worked in refrigerators.”
Jemima Kelly
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The waste management …
Lilah Raptopoulos
And you watch it . . . OK, I’m not saying it’s like quality of The Sopranos, but you watch The Sopranos and you’re like, OK, sometimes someone’s like, getting kicked in the face, and sometimes you’re, like, rolling your eyes knowingly to him, chatting with his daughter. I kind of felt that sort of like, we’re dark, we’re playful, we’re dark, we’re playful in this.
Jemima Kelly
Yeah. I like the idea that there’s something distinctly kind of Japanese about that and about the atmosphere. I did think that the . . . it was quite successful at conveying Japan, like, you feel like you’re there. And it’s like, I think the thing about The Sopranos is like the depth of the characters. And like I actually love like genres being mixed and like if you think about Succession, for example. I mean, the way that the kind of different genres of like, it’s absolute hilarious sometimes and like the drama is excellent as well. Like, but somehow I guess it doesn’t really, so far anyway, like, the characters haven’t kind of got the depth.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, yeah.
Nathan Brooker
I think you also, if you, you know, by bringing up The Sopranos, by bringing up Succession, you can see the kind of the gulf I would say between, in quality between those shows.
Lilah Raptopoulos
It just isn’t prestige TV. It doesn’t feel like prestige TV.
Nathan Brooker
Yeah. I mean, that is completely unfair because I have seen three episodes of this and it’s a different kind of show. But in terms of its conveyance of Japan, I think it’s very successful. The only slight wrinkle I would have is when the kind of, the organised crime thing came up, it flashed across my mind, “Hang on a minute. Is this Japanese? Or is this kind of familiarly Japanese?” Like, in the respect that it’s like, “Oh, right”. Yeah. Well, what do we know about Japan? That they have . . . it’s a very atomised culture in certain ways. OK. So they meet in a silent restaurant. What else do we know? They have a very kind of obedient corporate culture. You see that aspect. It’s very techno-futuristic. You know, Japan feels like it’s set in the future. oh, there’s that aspect as well. Oh, yeah. But also there’s this undercurrent of, like, kind of seedy violence, am I right? Yeah. Is this actually genuinely Japanese or is this, like, kind of a bingo card?
Lilah Raptopoulos
Interesting. It feels like box-checking Japanese.
Nathan Brooker
I mean, I don’t know if that’s, you know, maybe that’s exactly right and is a very true depiction of life in Japan. I don’t know, but it did feel like I’ve seen this before.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Lilah Raptopoulos
OK, let’s talk about how this show depicts our relationship with technology. Our colleague Madhumita Murgia, who covers AI, has said on this show that Japanese attitudes to AI has always been way less dystopian than ours. In western sort of film and television about the future of technology, often it’s like a cautionary tale where robots are Terminator monsters that might kill us. And in Japan, if you look at like, manga and things like that, robots have been cute for a long time. Not scary. And so there’s like many ways in which the Japanese have been thinking about how to live with them for some time. And this show feels like it’s asking some of those questions and exploring some of those grey areas, like this robot. OK, in the beginning, the robot, it’s like, “Are you going to kill me?” But you get past that pretty quickly and it starts to become this funny relationship between Suzie and Sunny. Did you feel that way?
Jemima Kelly
Yeah. It’s surprising, isn’t it? Because I think the very, very opening shot before we even see the rolling like the credits, which, by the way, I love that sort of thing. Although actually I’m going to say one thing about the set, it’s the music. I love the theme song. I’m not mad about the music in the actual like in the episodes. A lot of the time I feel that it’s slightly mismatched, like the music is often a bit like, “Oh, it’s a thriller, it’s all very dark”, and then it doesn’t feel as dark as the music is kind of making me think it’s going to be. And like it’s a lot less dark than Black Mirror. It’s just not as dystopian. You don’t come away from it thinking, “Oh my god. Maybe I should just . . ”
Lilah Raptopoulos
Right. Which is probably the point.
Nathan Brooker
I mean, exactly right. There’s a bit with a kind of she sort of breaks into a club of like a, it’s like a sort of a gambling den. Right? And there’s a kind of, there’s a fight and everyone’s throwing money and it’s like a kind of dogfight or a cockfight or whatever, but it’s two robots fighting and you’re like, “Dude, this is robot wars?” This isn’t frightening to see a robot get like, a blow torch should get a circular saw or the other one or whatever. So you know . . .
Jemima Kelly
It’s not so it’s not just I think I think that’s it. Like I think it’s not I think I’m personally quite scared about like AI. And this just doesn’t feel like, yeah, it’s like homicidal robots, but it’s all like, “LOL”. Actually she’s cute. It’s not actually . . . I’m not feeling disturbed coming away from it.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah. There are a few parts where I felt like it touched on sort of an interesting shift that was a little more nuanced. One was the scene where Suzie’s mother-in-law lets herself be kind of comforted by this robot, and it’s kind of like an old lady, grieving old lady, and like, it kind of works. The robot does whatever she needs. She listens, she pours her a drink, she tucks her in, she makes a little sandwich for her to eat when she wakes up. And it kind of made me think, like, actually, you know, some for some people, like, it’s not that complicated. And maybe a robot can give us the things that we need when we want to be comforted or we want sort of simple things.
Jemima Kelly
Well, yeah. And I was a bit surprised, when I heard, like, the premise in kind of one line before watching it, I was kind of expecting, given that the husband is presumed dead, which is, I think, an open question, like when you’re watching, you’re like, I’m not sure if this guy’s dead or not. In fact, one of the Black Mirror episodes from ages ago was like, the dead partner of someone was basically brought back to life via AI. Right? And that is one of the things that AI probably will do if you just put loads of answering, like loads of voice notes into like an AI big, you know, like, what do you call them? The big machine’s like …
Nathan Brooker
Large language . . . LLM.
Jemima Kelly
Yes. And large language, LM, well. (Chuckles) It can spit out someone that you loved, who you’ve lost. So in some ways, I’m kind of surprised that we’re not. Whether the robot isn’t being the son or the like or the husband.
Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s interesting.
Nathan Brooker
Absolutely. I mean, that episode is called Be Right Back and it’s got Domhnall Gleeson in it, and that really is about AI and how, you know, it can replicate a human being. This . . . that’s what I thought this was going to be. I agree. But actually I think this is the weakest area of the show, like the, the buddy comedy thing I can get behind and the corporate whistleblower and all this kind of thing, and that seems quite fun to me. But I was like, well, what does it tell us about AI? I don’t think it tells us anything about AI at all. You know, there was a great conversation they have in the Episode 2, right at the beginning where Sunny doesn’t really know the answer to a question. And they have this kind of elliptical conversation where Suzie’s trying to get answers out of. And so it’s got the, you know, the your inability to give a straight answer at lunch, because that is what it’s like talking to an AI bar customer service. So that is very good. Aside from that, like it just strikes me as being this could be, you know, Short Circuit or something from like the ‘80s. Like what does it . . . what is it telling us about AI?
Lilah Raptopoulos
It’s a good question. I mean, and ask and the other question I’m thinking as you’re talking is like, what are we craving? Like, what do we actually want?
Jemima Kelly
Right, yeah.
Lilah Raptopoulos
These shows to be talking about. I mean, you know, Jemima, you’re like a notorious sceptic of crypto changing everything. Yeah. I’m curious, sort of like how you apply that lens to this.
Lilah Raptopoulos
It’s actually a really interesting, kind of, question about what the relationships are that we want. So, like, as Nathan said, this companion is not very advanced in some ways. It’s just being like a cute little companion, like a cute friend. And it’s not suddenly like speaking in the voice of the child that she’s lost. And that might be, you know, maybe she doesn’t want to hear, like, maybe, do you know, do we want to keep someone alive after they die? I think that it’s quite interesting. Well, when Sunny gets stuck outside the weird robot ward, whatever it’s called. It’s got an English name, that place, it’s called something like …
Nathan Brooker
WANTED.
Jemima Kelly
WANTED. Yeah, very strange. And she goes, “Oh, shit”. And I think she says that a couple of times and you’re like, “Wait, are you talking to yourself?” And is this going to build . . . is this part of the break. Are we going to start to see the robot . . . because obviously like that’s a really interesting question is like at what point does a robot have like rights like, you know, and are they at what point are they living.
Lilah Raptopoulos
It’s interesting.
Nathan Brooker
I would agree these are really interesting questions. But again it brings up a comparison which is kind of unfavourable in Sunny, the TV show’s case, because in terms of the robot and the kind of the interior life of the robot, well, that’s done in her to incredibly moving degree, according to how good these robots actually are at mimicking humankind and whether or not that’s a good thing long term. That’s done in the In the Black Mirror episode. And so you’re like, well this doesn’t really do any of those things. Maybe it will do, maybe it’ll do something. Maybe it will do something to surprises in later episodes and I hope it does. But it does strike me as like some of these really difficult questions. And I agree with you, Jemima, but these are the ones that I think are interesting, have been grappled before and better. And yeah, let’s see. Let’s see what this does. It hasn’t done it yet.
Lilah Raptopoulos
I agree, actually. I think three to four episodes in, you sort of feel like the foundational question about technology here is more like: are we as humans comfortable with Alexas in our house? (Laughter).
When you know, with these domestic robots, which is a question we’ve been asking ourselves actually for about 10 years. And it’s not the questions at the foundation don’t feel ahead of their time the way they did with Black Mirror and Her.
Nathan Brooker
What I was yearning for in this, in its kind of genre-bending, is an answer to a new question or a new thing. Considering we’ve moved so quickly, AI has moved so quickly in the last two or three years, and it feels like this doesn’t grapple with any of those things. And in fact, is kind of weirdly set 15 years ago.
Jemima Kelly
Mmm. I think that is a good point. Yeah.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, totally. I think we kind of cracked it. (chuckles) I feel sort of relieved about us figuring out kind of the thing that felt like, well, we were wishing for the show. Jemima and Nathan, this is so much fun. Thank you. We will be back in just a moment for More or Less.
[‘DANGEROUS MEMORIES’ PODCAST TRAILER PLAYING]
Welcome back for More or Less, where each guest says one thing they want to see more of or less of in culture. Jemima, what do you have?
Jemima Kelly
Well, I want more laugh out loud comedy. Because I just feel we don’t have enough any more, OK? And like comedy — sorry to be that person — but comedy has become more difficult as it’s become harder to like, you know, people get a bit more sensitive about jokes. Fair enough. But like . . . so The Office, the English The Office was brilliant. OK. And, now you watch Ricky Gervais doing his standup, and it is just tragic because, like, there is no comedy, there is, like, nothing to laugh at. It’s just like cultural, cultural, cultural and …
Lilah Raptopoulos
Just so mad. Culture war. Totally.
Lilah Raptopoulos
And it’s like and so OK. Like but that’s one thing. But we just don’t have comedies to laugh out loud at. I’m just like, oh my god, we just need some satire, like The Thick of It. We just need something. I’m really craving something to really belly-laugh at. That’s what I want.
Lilah Raptopoulos
It’s interesting. We’ve heard that before, actually, on More or Less, people are like looking for better comedies. It’s good. People should make those.
Nathan Brooker
And I have a less. It’s quite niche. Do you know what I mean when I say the word “MAFS”?
Lilah Raptopoulos
Oh, MAFS.
Jemima Kelly
Oh my god! Married at First Sight.
Nathan Brooker
Married at First Sight is a reality TV show where people get married at first sight. Now the Australian …
Jemima Kelly
Gutter TV. That’s what I’m saying. You need, one needs gutter TV in one’s life.
Nathan Brooker
So the Australian version is the absolute pinnacle of this.
Jemima Kelly
Yes, I’ve heard.
Nathan Brooker
. . . the very best version. And it is an absolutely terrible, possibly immoral show, but it is incredibly compelling. However, I have one absolute beef with one aspect of it drives me up the wall. This is, I call it the pre-cap recap, which is like there’s like a dramatic thing which happens in the episode and then but you will have seen it, they will have trailed it.
Jemima Kelly
Oh, I hate that. I hate that. They give it away
Nathan Brooker
And when you come back from the . . . they give it away. And then when you come back from the commercial break, when you come back from the adverts, they pre-cap the thing. So you’ll see another 10 times.
Jemima Kelly
Oh, I so agree on this. Thank you for reminding me. I hate that.
Lilah Raptopoulos
(Laughter) Good stuff. That’s a really good one, Nathan.
Nathan Brooker
The prosecution rests.
Lilah Raptopoulos
(Laughter) The prosecution rests. This is a more as in better. I would like to somehow restart my algorithm. I don’t like it.
Jemima Kelly
I love that. I hate my algorithm.
Nathan Brooker
That’s a very good …
Lilah Raptopoulos
I feel like maybe Sunny has maybe personified my algorithm. Like it’s a person that I’m mad at right now. It’s like a robot that’s not doing its job for me. But I feel that it is prioritising celebrities that I don’t care about. I’m getting. all I’m getting are clips of Taylor Swift on tour and Zendaya on red carpet. They’re fine. I like them both, but it’s like 90 per cent Taylor Swift and Zendaya and I really what I want is like, I just bought a house …
Jemima Kelly
Oh, my god. This is profound.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Thank you. I just bought a house. I want kitchen layouts, I want bathrooms, I want paint colours. I’m doing all these searches. It’s not giving me what I want. And so …
Nathan Brooker
Can you clear cache? Can you do that?
Jemima Kelly
This is so interesting because OK, I genuinely think this is an amazing subject, but this is genuinely this is a Black Mirror thing. Because like, I think genuinely as algorithms become more and more, like important, unlike a kind of data like that is a genuinely profound thing. Like, do we get to have any say about the algorithm.
Lilah Raptopoulos
Thanks, Jemima. Totally, yeah. Like, can we have it bent to our will? It should be bending to our will. Isn’t that the point? But we actually have no conscious say. We only have this like a weird secondary say.
Jemima Kelly
Like, do we get to be like, “No, I love that”. I . . . actually can I steal that for a column?
Lilah Raptopoulos
Yeah, go for it. It’s all yours. Nathan and Jemima, this was so much fun. Thank you both so much for coming on the show.
Jemima Kelly
It was super fun.
Nathan Brooker
Yeah, really fun. Thank you very much.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Lilah Raptopoulos
That’s the show. Thank you for listening to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I’ve linked to some relevant pieces in the show notes, including the FT’s review of Sunny and places to find Jemima and Nathan’s work. Every link that brings you to the FT gets you past the paywall. Also in the show notes are ways to stay in touch with me on email and on Instagram. I love hearing from you and of course the link for the survey.
I’m Lilah Raptopoulos and here is our talented team. Katya Kumkova is our senior producer. Lulu Smyth is our producer. Our sound engineers are Breen Turner and Sam Giovinco, with original music by Metaphor Music. Topher Forhecz is our executive producer and our global head of audio is Cheryl Brumley.
